So You Got Arrested

The Race for Bexar County DA: An Interview with Meli Carrión Powers

• BRCK Criminal Defense Attorneys

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0:00 | 32:58

Meli Carrión Powers,  a candidate for Bexar County District Attorney, to discuss her journey from a small-town "Sandcrab" in Port Lavaca to the front lines of the criminal trial division.

Whether you're facing charges or simply want to understand your rights, this episode offers a rare, behind-the-curtain look at how the District Attorney's office actually functions. Meli shares her transition from a law student intern under Susan Reed to a seasoned prosecutor specializing in the complex world of family violence.

Key topics discussed in this episode:

  • The Evolution of Evidence: From the "olden times" of VHS tapes and rotary dials to the modern era of body cams, dash cams, and mandatory blood warrants.
  • The Prosecutor’s Hierarchy: Breaking down the roles of "third chair," "second chair," and "first chair" attorneys in the courtroom.
  • The Intake Process: How cases are vetted, filed, and presented to a grand jury after an arrest.
  • The Complexity of Family Violence: A deep dive into why these cases are unique, involving intact family units, reluctant witnesses, and the high stakes of "affirmative findings."
  • Rehabilitation vs. Incarceration: Why addressing root causes like mental health and substance abuse is often more effective for community safety than short-term jail sentences.
  • The Crawford Rule: Understanding your constitutional right to confront your accuser and how it impacts the admissibility of evidence when a victim won't testify.

Join us for part one of this insightful conversation as we explore the "smart moves" that can change everything in the Texas justice system.

SPEAKER_00

The Texas justice system is messy. So let's break it down. You're listening to So You Got Arrested, the podcast that tells you what really happens after an arrest. Hosted by BRIC Criminal Defense Attorneys. We talk to the people who've lived it, worked in it, and been shaped by it. Whether you're facing charges or just want to understand your rights, your options, and the smart moves that could change everything, we've got your back.

Meet DA Candidate Melly Powers

SPEAKER_05

Welcome to So You Got Arrested. This is a BRIC Criminal Defense Podcast. So we've been doing a series lately where we've been interviewing candidates for the district attorney's race and some of our local judges. We're very fortunate to have Melly Carrione Powers with us today. She's a candidate for Barrett County District Attorney. Welcome to the podcast, Melly.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05

We have Jacob Lindbergh who's jumping in as our co-host today. Local brick. Local brick. Melly, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you from?

SPEAKER_02

Sure. So I was born and raised in Port Lavaca, Texas. You know where that is?

SPEAKER_05

Uh it's near Corpus. Am I that's the sand crabs, no?

SPEAKER_02

How did you know that? It is the sand crabs. Port Lavaca, Texas is a teeny tiny little town. I don't think the population's changed that much. It's about 10,000 um residents in a small town halfway between Corpus and Houston. Okay. So it's on the Gulf Coast. So most people that have heard of it, a lot of people haven't. I'm surprised you knew that. But if most people that have heard of it know about it because of fishing.

SPEAKER_05

Okay.

Small-Town Roots And Early Advocacy

SPEAKER_02

So they go fishing off of you know Port O'Connor or that area. So my parents were not from there. They came from the Corpus area, but my parents were educators, so they were teachers and then principals. So I was raised by principals. Um, and they uh that's where they taught school in the county. Both of them were um elementary school principals.

SPEAKER_05

Now were they principals at your school?

SPEAKER_02

No, no.

SPEAKER_05

Thank goodness.

SPEAKER_02

But what was I had I still have stories though, because I so I would by the time I they became principals, I was in high school. So when I was younger, they were still teachers. And my mom was a PE teacher, and I don't remember what my dad taught, but they were teachers, and then as I got older, they became principals. And just real quick, there was this one time that I was at high school, different school, and there was all kinds there was some drama happening at the school that um um just drama, and and I came home after school and I walked into the house, and my mom said, You need to come sit down at the table. And I was like, Okay. And she's and it was an it was an incident where I I want to say I stood up for somebody um who was being wronged, and so it just it sort of created some.

SPEAKER_05

So you were an advocate back then.

SPEAKER_02

I was I was and I remember very clearly, but but she so she came and she she told me to sit down, and I sat down and she said, Um, she was like, it's my understanding that this incident happened, and she explained it and I was like, how do you know this? How did she know when I hadn't even come home to tell her? But the teachers all call each other. So so she knew she really I I didn't do anything wrong. I was on the side of right, but she wanted to know that I was okay. Um, she wanted to know that I wasn't, you know, upset, that we had all this this conflict that was going on had resolved. And I said, Yes, it's fine. But the teacher, one of the teachers was concerned and called my mom and said, Hey, can you check on Melly?

SPEAKER_05

And and this is in the days before text messaging. Yeah, so that's yeah, this teacher had to walk over to her, putting it together. Yeah, you know, no, no, no, no. Teacher made the effort, probably had a rotary dial where they could be from your Rolodex, you know.

SPEAKER_02

This is the 90s Jacob. But anyway, yeah.

UT Politics To Law School Path

SPEAKER_05

So you're you're there. Uh now, what was the name of the high school?

SPEAKER_02

Was it Calhoun High School?

SPEAKER_05

Calhoun High School.

SPEAKER_02

Calhoun, and then the mascot are sand craps.

SPEAKER_05

Okay, okay. The only thing that I know about your high school experience, and I saw this on Facebook, was that you were a drum major. You were like the the one that led the band. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, but people think sometimes the drum major is a drummer, right? Like a percussionist, but it's not the drum major is the leader of the band that does the conducting on the marching field.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

So the one that walks in with a funny hat usually and walks in and the lead and then leads and then goes and stands up on the podium. Yeah, on the podium. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And if you go to a cool school, it's the one that dances with the good band music.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it was the best. Yeah, no, I was. It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I went to high school in Corpus Christi. I went to Flower Bluff for a couple of years, and so we played the sand crabs, luckily won every time. Um everybody won every time. No, we beat him with soccer, it was the best. It was very competitive, anyways. Uh and we also fished with my grandfather out that way.

SPEAKER_05

So it's you know, it's familiar enough, and this is Jacob's chance to brag that the soccer team was really good. That's how we're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it was a long time ago. But that's where I grew up. And then I let um my parents stayed for a bit, my sister's older. Um, so when I went to college, I stayed at the local, well, it's in the next town over in Victoria, stayed there for a couple years and did just my basic stuff there. There's a story behind that, but I won't get into it. Um, and then after two years at the the it's a junior college, if you will, I went to UT Austin. Okay. So I went from small to huge.

SPEAKER_05

Um that's a big change.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it was a big and then in in at UT Austin, as part of I was a major in political science or government. And one of the classes that I took was um campaign, I forget the title of it, but it was you work for a campaign. So I worked at the time before your time, Jacob. I worked for um the campaign was lieutenant governor when um um Mr. Sharp. Oh my gosh, John Sharp. John Sharp John Sharp ran against Rick Perry at the time for lieutenant governor. So this was 1998 or somewhere.

SPEAKER_04

Rick Perry sounds familiar.

SPEAKER_02

Rick Perry. Well, Rick Perry later um well, Rick Perry. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, he was on Dancing with Stars. Yep. You're joking, right? He was the governor of Texas.

SPEAKER_02

Anyway. Yes, I understand. Okay, okay. So John Sharp um lost. We lost, right? He's a Democrat. I know. Um but yeah, so then I did, I was uh I got school credit for working on that campaign, and I was in the finance fundraising department. Um so that kind of that kind of stuck a bit. So that's why I went to law school.

SPEAKER_05

So you got it you got interested in like public service, public interest, that kind of thing.

Landing The DA Internship

SPEAKER_02

And everybody, everybody around that were, you know, the senators and people that are working for the ledge. I was just kind of like, okay, well, all of them are lawyers. So that sort of got that ball ruling. And then, you know, some among other things. But um, so yeah, then I went to St. Mary's, came here for St. Mary's. Okay. So I went from Austin and then came here. My sister was living here at the time. She was going to get her master's. So I I came here.

SPEAKER_05

Aaron Ross Powell And so when you started law school, did you know that you would have an interest in like criminal law, or is that what you went to law school for?

SPEAKER_02

It sounds like maybe you went to law school to do more on the you know government side of things or I fully intended when I started law school, I fully intended, I think my mindset was I was going to serve in some sort of public office capacity. But then once I ended up at the DA's office and as an intern, so I ended up going to the DA and the same thing. So this is during law school? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

While you're in law school, in olden times they had a notebook where you flip through it to find your summer jobs and stuff. Um, hard copy.

SPEAKER_04

And did you send emails after that? Oh, okay. All right. So I send a carrier pigeon to deliver today.

SPEAKER_01

How do you communicate with them?

SPEAKER_02

So we um so I see this, this ad, or you know, for the for an internship. And um you weren't supposed to be you were supposed to be a second-year student, but for whatever reason they let me interview anyway. It was at the very end of my first year. And they hired me as an intern. So I there were actually it was an intern in the so I would have been a felony intern for the criminal trial division, right? So they have a bunch of interns still.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um I actually had a couple of friends that were interns in the family violence division, but I didn't I wasn't super familiar with it because I was in the criminal trial division.

SPEAKER_04

Who was the district attorney at that time?

SPEAKER_02

Susan Reed.

SPEAKER_04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Do you know you know that name? Yes. That one, I know that one, yes, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And so uh was this a job that you took in the summer after your first year of law school?

SPEAKER_02

It was so I would have it was right at the beginning of second year by the time it was September.

SPEAKER_05

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

So September at the very start of second year, but I did the interview stuff in the summer. So set second year in September is when I started working there. And then I just stayed. Yeah, I'm taking it.

SPEAKER_05

You had a positive experience while you were there.

SPEAKER_02

I did. It was, I mean, I learned a lot. It was very, you know, I I learned a lot. Um and so that would have that would have that was in law school, but I was also had some personal lived experiences happening while I was in law school. And so putting that together with where I was already working, then it just sort of catapulted, like, okay, this is where I'm gonna stay. This is what I want to do. This is what I'm gonna do.

First Prosecutor Job And Choices

SPEAKER_05

So by the time you finished law school, you knew, hey, I want to go be a prosecutor.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, but um, after we were done, we there were several of us in classes in our classes together. We were done being interns, very different than now. Um, there was one vacancy for a prosecutor.

SPEAKER_01

Oh wow, okay.

SPEAKER_02

One vacancy, and three of us internship are applying, right? So my dear friend Bridget Garza, myself, and Robbie Ward. I don't know if you're if you know Robbie.

SPEAKER_05

I'm familiar with Robbie.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and so if I'm correct, Robbie got the job. And so we fent, so we were like, okay, there's what do we do now?

SPEAKER_04

No openings.

SPEAKER_02

No, it was just one opening. And then and Robbie, you know, well, deserves Robbie's a strong lawyer. She got the job. And so I actually started looking in surrounding counties, and I actually had applied and was um offered her position in Comal. And so it was, it was like the first day I I remember very clearly it was I was driving to Comal County, and I got a call from the um, I don't remember what her name was at the time, the like the administrative attorney who then called from Bear County, who then called and said, Hey, oh, now we have another opening. But I was about to take this job in Comal County. Right. So I was like, what do I do? So I called my dad. I'm like, what do I do? And he said, You go and explain. You go and explain to them and you, you know, ask for some grace. So I did in that, and for to my recollection, everybody was very graceful about all of it. And I came back and I started working on the Well, you already knew everybody at the Bear County DA's office.

SPEAKER_05

I lived here too.

Life In Misdemeanor DWI Court

SPEAKER_02

I was home. Um I don't remember who exactly I met with, but I I do remember it not being, you know, it was very it was a very gracious moment on their part too. Um so then I came back and then I just started working in the misdemeanor world.

SPEAKER_05

So when you started, um, you know, you started as a misdemeanor prosecutor. Uh what kind of cases were you doing?

SPEAKER_02

Mostly DWI. And in olden times, Jacob, there were um most of our cases were on VHS tapes.

SPEAKER_04

Right. You know, you plug that into the VCR into the VCR.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. Okay. Right. Yeah, yeah. So uh most of our DWIs were on VHS tapes. Um if you didn't have a tape, you really didn't have any other evidence, right? Because now as everything changes, we have body cam and dash cam and all the things that make evidence so complicated.

SPEAKER_05

It's very rare that you get a case nowadays that does not have some video or audio. And it's almost suspicious, you know, if you have a case that doesn't have that. Yeah. You know, where an officer makes a scene. But it it did used to be the case. I remember back in the day, um, DWIs, we wouldn't have video. You know, I I practiced a lot in these rural jurisdictions. There was just no video. It was just a report that you got, and then that's what you decided. Okay, are we going to trial on this? We're not going to trial on this.

SPEAKER_02

And and we didn't even really I we didn't even really do blood. We had breath tests.

SPEAKER_05

No, there was no yeah.

SPEAKER_02

There was no blood.

SPEAKER_05

You could just refuse the breath.

SPEAKER_02

Could you refuse, right? You could refuse the total test.

SPEAKER_05

And then you could have a total refusal case. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Which meant like um oftentimes no breath, and in fact, somebody that refused to do the um SFSTs.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah st um.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it was a total refusal case.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And I feel like the blood thing was even the last five years as far as getting the blood warrants and all those things. I think it's been a little longer than that.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I think it's been a little longer than that. But it was a significant change once they made that change uh because it did change the way you defend DWIs. There's a lot of things. Because all of a sudden you weren't telling you weren't advising people, hey, just don't agree to do the breath, because now you get this blood warrant. Get the warrant and they're gonna get it regardless. So you're doing DWIs.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, the majority.

SPEAKER_05

And a lot of those cases end up in trial.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. We tried a lot of cases. And and it I was in County Court 11 for a bit with Judge Joanne the Oyos. You probably have seen her around. I saw her not that long ago. It's nice. Um, and County Court 8 with the late Karen Crouch. Um, but I was in those two courts the longest. 11 was where I was for them for the longest period of time. And we we tried a lot of cases, we tried a lot of cases, it felt like. Um most of them were DWIs. I did have an as I did have one as one or two assaults, and I did have a deadly conduct, um, but most of what we tried back then were DWIs.

SPEAKER_04

So misdemeanor criminal trial division prosecution at least at first.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_05

And I and I think that, you know, I don't know if that's the case now, but I do remember for the longest time um the misdemeanor prosecutors in everywhere, you know, in including Bear County, a lot of the cases, if you weren't doing family violence, a lot of your trials were just DWIs. Because that's those were the cases that were most likely to go to trial.

Evidence Then And Now: VHS To Blood

SPEAKER_02

They were. And then back in then in olden times, this was 20 years ago, right? 20 something years ago. Um, it was it was the the the community focus, the DWIs, drunk driving, the danger that this posed to our community was like the focus of the work that we did.

SPEAKER_05

Well, you had these advocacy groups, I don't know if they're still active, but it was like mothers against drunk driving. I mean, it was a very big thing, which is why we have the changes in the law that you know that we do for DWI. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So I feel like it's shifted a little bit, but that might be just because of the work that I do now. But I feel that so much focus now is on violent crime and domestic violence and family violence. That that may just be my perception just because of what I'm working on. But it seems if the feeling that I have is back then the community concern was DWI's, and now it's violent crime and family violence.

SPEAKER_05

Definitely. So did you, as a misdemeanor prosecutor, were you trying family violence cases at all, or was that later on?

SPEAKER_02

That was later. So they said they had our designated family violence courts, and when I started, it would have been just one court, I think it was seven, and then they later added county court 13. Um that was sometime later. And then, of course, we didn't get our impact courts until recently.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, okay. So at what point did you move from a misdemeanor prosecutor to being a felony prosecutor?

SPEAKER_02

So I did um the majority of my misdemeanor, well, all of my misdemeanor time was in the trial courts, and that's where we tried cases. And then um when I was promoted to felony, I I was, I think that was an intake. So it was but um not family violence intake, general crimes.

SPEAKER_05

So just so people know, intake is the division where they process the cases that are coming in after the arrest.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. So law enforcement files cases with our office. Um there's different intake sections or departments in across the office, but generally speaking, an intake attorney is gonna take that case filed from law enforcement, collaborate with law enforcement and getting additional evidence or obtaining evidence that we don't have, reviewing it and making those determinations of can we move forward or can't we?

SPEAKER_05

And so we're up against it. Uh time flies. Uh, we're gonna take our break and we'll be right back with Mele Catillon Powers.

SPEAKER_03

The attorneys of Brit Criminal Defense have helped over 5,000 clients move on with their lives. When an arrest or accusation turns your life upside down, we have the knowledge, experience, and integrity to get your life back on track. Traditional legal ethics, modern legal tactics, the best defense possible to get you through the criminal justice system. Search Brit Criminal Defense to see our reviews and find out why so many of our clients have trusted us to fight for them. Brit Criminal Defense, helping our clients move on with their lives.

SPEAKER_05

And so we're back. Um, so you're in intake and you're learning how cases get filed, you're handling all of that at the felony level. Yes. And so then what happens?

SPEAKER_02

So I I'm there for some some several years. So that was reviewing cases, that's presenting cases to grand jury. Um and 2000 I'd say around 2007, um I was promoted. So we, you know, they have um third chair, you're a misdemeanor prosecutor, you're promoted to third chair, and then second, and then first. So when I I spent the majority of my time as a third chair in intake, when I got promoted to second chair, that's when I moved over to family violence.

Community Focus Shifts In Crime

SPEAKER_05

And just so people know, uh terms like third chair and second chair, we use those, but it it it it is almost exactly what it sounds like. So in the courtroom, the first chair prosecutor is the main one that's handling the case. That's the lead. And then the second chair sits next to them at trial and kind of assists with the prosecution of the case. And then your third chair, they're not always there in trial, but they're in that court kind of working on cases. And they try cases as well with the second chairs.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, they it's every I think every team kind of does it a little bit differently. The goal now nowadays, since our our teams tend to be a bit less experienced, but the goal is to try to have, at least for us, is to try to get trial experience, everybody to get trial experience where they can. Everybody should, I in my opinion, should have intake experience too. You become more well-rounded when you are able to do all of those things.

SPEAKER_05

Aaron Ross Powell And as an intake prosecutor, I mean you're working with law enforcement, you're you're kind of making decisions on, hey, does this case need more evidence? Does it need more investigation? Is this is this up to you know our standards for something that we want to prosecute? Right. Right. And so um you go from intake and then I'm sorry, you so then I went to family violence um as a second. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

They I was promoted, I went into the unit. Um I was assigned to the 399th district court. So at the time was Judge Juanita Vasquez Gardner. So it was there for quite a bit. And then later I moved on to another court to the 437th, which at the time was Judge Laurie Valenzuela. So we um when I was in family and it has changed over the it's grown so much over the years. So many, many years before, family violence used to be one prosecutor, one family violence prosecutor per court. They did their own trials, they did their own motion, you know, any courtroom matters, they did their own, they did their own intake. Um and then it grew and there were some additional um uh lawyers added. So some courts, half the courts, had two prosecutors, and then half the courts had one prosecutor. Still everybody's responsible for their own caseloads, their own intake, everything.

SPEAKER_01

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So it was that's how it was in tw that's how it was for quite a while, really until Joe came in.

SPEAKER_05

So when Joe came in, and this is uh the current DA current current Joe Gonzalez.

Moving To Felony Intake

SPEAKER_02

By this point in time coming in as chief, I had been in the division now for I don't know, over 10 years. And I saw, you know, where we just we just needed more lawyers. And and that's I think I feel like over the past 25 years, it's constantly getting resources, has been a constant struggle right now. There's never enough hands to do the work. Um but when Joe came in, and I remember before entering office, you know, we'd have meetings and planning and and all of those things, and he was very open to hear what I had to say about how this division needed more help. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_05

Well, family violence cases are tough. I mean, they're very complicated because you're talking about people that have some sort of relationship to each other. Right. Uh whether it's a dating relationship, whether they're married, um, or at a at a minimum they reside in the same household. And so those can be complicated cases, right? Because you have an accuser who is in a relationship or residing with the person the accused, and that creates its own set of dynamics. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Um I guess I tell people, I mean, they're families, right? Family violence is your cases are revolve around families, family dynamics, family units. And um, you know, and Jacob's been there, but I I feel like I say um quite a bit, you know, that we need to remember um when we have a case, it's real easy to have the physical case file on our desk and see a snapshot of what happened in a family um that that got them here. But we sometimes, and I try not to forget that there's there's a big picture. There's a big picture, there's dynamics, there's children, there's um finances, there's, you know, these are individuals that many, many times um have a family unit that is going to remain intact even after the case. After the case, that's right.

SPEAKER_05

It's different from like a theft case where like if somebody steals something from Walmart, you have the manager of the Walmart who's coming in and willing to testify and willing to pursue that. A lot of times in the family violence cases, um, you know, there's a a call to police, and and maybe it wasn't even the victim who called the police. Um, but they're there and they're giving a statement. But then once that case gets the DA's office, they're like, whoa, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

Family Violence Unit Structure

SPEAKER_05

You know, my my husband's gonna lose his job, or we, you know, we could lose our house, or I I'm not gonna go forward with this, or you know, and then and my experience is they're they're complicated cases because I know that uh on your end, I'm on the other side of it. Sure, sure, sure. But I know on your end, there are times where you're dealing with very reluctant uh victims and witnesses, or not even reluctant, but just straight out non-cooperative. Uh I know that because they call me and say I don't want to talk to them, you know, and so I I imagine it makes it difficult.

SPEAKER_02

It it's it it is, but it it's it's just it's very it's even though some of these cases, especially at the misdemeanor level, they're they're misdemeanors, they're still very serious, right? Um I hate, I hate, hate when people say, oh, it's just a misdemeanor, but it it's very serious because there's there's violence. Even if it's not felony level violence, there's still violence in the home. And in let and in most cases, in most cases, and I feel like I see it much more now than maybe years before, every ever almost every case you look at, you can kind of see that you can almost identify what the issues are. So many, many times it's there's there's substance abuse going on, um, and and somebody's not able, somebody's not able to control that or maintain um control over it or get assistance for it. Mental health, mental health um issues that are untreated, somebody may not have insurance, they may not have money, um, they may not know that there's mental health issues. And so um a lot of times those those root causes are what's causing the criminal behavior. And if we can, and we can't always, but if we can give tools to people who are going to prevent, we're we're trying to prevent them from coming back through the system. That's right, that's right. Um so we have that have this this conversation quite a bit, particularly say on a misdemeanor case where um maybe um somebody somebody is asking, well, why is this, you know, why is this person not going to jail? And I'm like, okay, let's talk about that. And and he has experience with this, but when jail, you know, as you all know, um on a misdemeanor, um usually a person's not gonna get a whole one year sentence to jail. Right. It's going to be much less. And then there's the credit for time that they're spending in. Um so you know, 90 days in jail is not really 90 days in jail. Um 180 days in jail is not really 180 days in jail. And in most instances, when somebody is in jail, um, we're not they at some point they will be released, and not much else has changed.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

Why These Cases Are So Complex

SPEAKER_02

And so um You're not addressing the the root cause of the We're not addressing and and the criminal justice system. I mean, I mean we're limited, obviously. The the system's limited in what it can do, but but there are some mechanisms in place, right? We have we have different specialty courts, we have um different programs on for whether on if somebody's on probation or going through a you know pretrial diversion, there's different, you know, we can kind of tailor that to the needs of the individual of the family. Um but but this kind of um mindset, if you will, this is not something that when I was a misdemeanor prosecutor and we were prosecuting DWIs, this was not something that I knew of then. Like times time times have changed quite a bit to where now we realize that statistically, if we can prevent, we can prevent future violence by getting people the assistance that they need.

SPEAKER_04

It's moved more towards a rehabilitative outlook, definitely, as studies have shown us how important that is. And really these misdemeanor family violence cases are extremely important. As a prosecutor, you know, I personally saw, okay, a class A misdemeanor could be, you know, you have a pushing where it's not good, there's a pushing, you know, you shouldn't push, that's violent, right? But in reality, maybe you have a bump on your arm or something. It's nothing extremely violent or extremely dangerous, right? I've also had the misdemeanor of family violence where there were broken bones, but we couldn't get a serious bodily injury letter, which would have made it a felony because of the circumstances, right? And the doctors wouldn't agree to it actually being serious bodily injury. And even in those situations where there's broken bones and bruises all over the body, jail time still isn't necessarily a realistic option. You can offer it, it's a part of it, but still that misdemeanor level takes that away. And so when we talk about how serious these cases are, that's why. And there's with these misdemeanor family violence consequences now, you know, as defense attorneys and as prosecutors, there's a lot of collateral consequences for them, the affirmative finding of family violence. Um of course.

SPEAKER_05

So a collateral consequence just means in addition to the punishment that is provided by the judge or by the jury, there's other consequences to it. Like for family violence, a collateral consequence upon conviction or probation is that you cannot own or possess a firearm for five years. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_04

And on top of the affirmative finding, you know, if you're in a child custody dispute of some sort, you're going to lose that child custody dispute because of that finding.

SPEAKER_05

And the affirmative finding is just so uh, affirmative finding is just a judge putting something on the judgment saying, I am finding that family violence has occurred. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly, exactly. And so those collateral consequences exist. And like you said, there's collateral causes. It's not necessarily that this person on cause number CR2577 did this. It's a person who is in a relationship where there's things causing it and leading to it. Um, and so those kinds of things definitely exist. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Root Causes: Substance Use And Mental Health

SPEAKER_05

Well, what uh what a lot of people don't understand is that you know, if somebody just goes to jail for a class A misdemeanor, once they've served that jail time, that case is over. Right. Like they're they're they're they don't have to take classes, they don't have to do anger management, they don't have to do any of that stuff because the judgment is satisfied the case is over. Whereas if somebody's placed on community supervision and they're monitored, they can be ordered. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh up to two years. They can be monitored and they can be, you know, forced to or compelled to take anger management, take family violence courses, uh, take drug testing, do, you know, alcohol.

SPEAKER_04

And probation is hard. I mean, it is a difficult thing. I mean, especially having a job and doing those things on top of it. Um it's a difficult thing, but it's good because they're able to grow themselves rather than just having the county pay for them being in jail.

SPEAKER_05

And then what a lot of people also don't understand is when you violate probation, you go to jail. So still there. Yes.

Jail Versus Probation Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no, it it is. And then on, you know, and this is uh obviously I feel different when we're talking about the super super egregious. Um, you know somebody's set on fire. I mean, I you can come up with the really egregious fact scenarios, and sometimes they're scenarios. Right, right. You have very, very egregious stuff. Maybe not quite a murder, but almost there, um, or the potential to be there, then then sometimes, you know, right, the family violence classes aren't really realistic. So it's like then it's like how do we keep the community safe? Then, you know, sometimes the only option um there is going to be some form of incarceration. But um, but yeah, the you know, with with family violence cases being as complicated as they are, and with the dynamics that are involved, you know, the cycle of violence, power and control, all of those things that come into play, we do have more often than not, situations where the complainant or the survivor or the victim, however you want to refer, um, are not able, um, sometimes not willing, sometimes not able. And I say not able because some of these um factors that come into play that prevent someone from being able to participate in the criminal justice system. So in many, many of our family violence cases, we don't have a witness to sponsor evidence, right? And so then that that's a question that's posed to me very frequently. Like, um, and sometimes it's asked, like, um, how can you, you know, why can't you prove this case without um calling this person as a witness, the victim or the survivor? Okay, well, sometimes we can, right? Sometimes we can. Sometimes if the the evidence um allows us to, if the evidence is admissible following all the rules that we have to follow now, um sometimes we can, and we do, but it's much more challenging to do so when you don't have that witness to sponsor.

SPEAKER_05

It is difficult because I mean, and and we get it on our side too, where people say, Well, why couldn't I put this evidence on? Well, because the rules of evidence generally require that you have firsthand knowledge of whatever it is that you're trying to get in. There's all these other requirements for other different types of evidence, and you need, you know, that specific witness or person available in order to do it. And if that person does not want to testify, is not willing to testify, then it becomes difficult to get that type of evidence in. And that may be the evidence that's necessary for some type of conviction or acquittal. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02

Right. You have to be able to, as a prosecutor, I have to be able to prove every element I'm required to prove, but do it without the witness. So usually that's going to be where I'm only relying maybe on a police officer.

SPEAKER_05

But then identify-police officer who arrives after the fact.

SPEAKER_02

Who arrives after the fact, who may not know exactly what happened or how it happened, which I have to show, who may not have ever met the offender, which now, you know, without um a witness to come and testify, then I don't have an identification. So all of those limitations come into play. Um now they come into play. In olden times, um, the rules were a little bit different. And so I remember, I remember when when all the laws started changing uh how it did have an impact on family violence cases. But you know, before Crawford, we're talking pre-Crawford and all of that, things were a lot, a lot different.

SPEAKER_05

And Crawford, you know, that's just a Supreme Court case that stands for the the idea that you have the right to confront your accuser, and if the victim does not testify, you can't just put on her statements. Right, right. They don't and a lot of people don't understand that. You can't just play a video of what this person told the officer. Right. It doesn't work that way. But uh once again, we're our segment flew by, so what I'd like to do is carry this conversation over to our next episode, if that's okay with you. It is. Okay. So this is So You Got Arrested with Brit Criminal Defense with Molly Garillon Powers, Jacob Lindbergh, and Steve Barrera. Thank you so much.

Sponsor Message: BRIC Criminal Defense

Return And Wrap: Next Episode Tease

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for listening to So You Got Arrested. If you found this podcast helpful, share it with someone who needs to hear it. For more legal insights and real talk from the front lines of the Texas justice system, follow us and subscribe. And remember, Brick Criminal Defense has your back. For more information, visit us at brckdefense.com.