So You Got Arrested

What Really Happens in Juvenile Court in Texas with Judge Christina "Tina" Hartmann

• BRCK Criminal Defense Attorneys

Share episode

This episode of So You Got Arrested dives deep into the often-misunderstood Texas juvenile justice system with a special guest, Judge Christina "Tina" Hartmann, who shares her experience as both a prosecutor and a judge in juvenile court.

The discussion begins by highlighting the fundamental difference between the juvenile and adult systems: the juvenile system's primary goal is rehabilitation (like a mixture of criminal justice and social work), while the adult system focuses mainly on public protection.

Key Discussion Points:

  • Rehabilitation Focus: The system prioritizes rehabilitation; probation officers are assigned immediately to offer services and counseling, a major difference from adult court.
  • Jurisdiction: The court handles children aged 10 through 17, even for minor offenses like school fights.
  • Custody: Juveniles are detained in a detention center (not jail) using a process that can involve a "directive to apprehend" (warrant).
  • Diversion Programs: Options like "assess, counsel, and release" or a "deferred contract" can resolve cases without formal court proceedings.
  • Safeguards: Extra protections include the use of a neutral magistrate to ensure a child understands their rights before giving a statement to an investigator.
  • Detention Hearing (48-Hour Rule): A hearing must occur within 48 hours of detainment. No bond is set; the judge reviews probable cause and determines release based on the child's safety and supervision. Hearings are reviewed every 10–15 days.
  • Formal Proceedings: The charging document is a petition, and a finding of guilt is an adjudication of "true" or "not true."
  • Sentencing (Disposition): Sentencing requires a finding of a "need for disposition." For severe cases, a child may be sent to TJJD (Texas Juvenile Justice Department), a rehabilitative institution, not a prison.
  • Records: Juveniles generally have the right to seal their records, though serious felonies or TJJD commitments can affect this.

Connect with us 

https://www.youtube.com/@BRCKdefense

https://www.brckdefense.com/ 

https://www.facebook.com/BRCKDefense/ 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/brckcriminaldefenseattorneys 

https://www.instagram.com/brckdefense/ 

SPEAKER_00:

So you got arrested. The podcast that tells you what really happens after an arrest. Hosted by Brick Criminal Defense Attorney. We talk to the people who've lived it, worked in it, and been shaped by it. Whether you're facing charges or just want to understand your rights, your options, and the smart moves that could change everything, we've got your back.

SPEAKER_04:

So we have Judge Tina Hartman with us today, and I appreciate you uh coming to join us, Tina. Uh, the reason that we have you on, I was excited to have you on is because I want to explore juvenile court. And uh you have some experience in juvenile court, both as a prosecutor and as a judge. Um, you and I had a uh juvenile murder case years ago that went on for I think a couple of years. And so, and you have some experience with my partner here, Mr. Simpson.

SPEAKER_02:

You all we worked together at Beer County.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep, we were both in the DA's office, and I was down the hall from him on the fifth floor.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yes, awesome. We tried at least one case together, didn't we? Or no?

SPEAKER_01:

It resolved right before. Okay.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, was Scott always this ball of energy that you know we have in our office?

SPEAKER_01:

Or yes, I've never seen him sit still. Um but it's not bad. Yeah, it's not bad.

SPEAKER_04:

That's his personality. So uh juvenile court. So let's kind of talk about that. Um, you know, uh we get a lot of calls on juvenile cases, or a lot of people have questions, they misunderstand what the juvenile system is like. I've always kind of described the juvenile system as kind of a mixture of uh criminal, you know, the criminal justice system and almost like social work, right?

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, yes, and I'm gonna give information today just as a caveat, it's general education for the public. It is not intended to say how anybody would rule or talk about a specific case at all. So I'll start with that. But no, what I tell people in juvenile court is the goal of juvenile court is typically to rehabilitate children so they don't end up in the adult system, which is very, very different than adult court, right? Because in adult court, um, the focus is on protecting the public much more. There is some rehabilitation there, but it's not the primary focus. Whereas when you look at the way juvenile court works, um, there's a lot of differences. The biggest one most people notice, um, if I can go into this, is that in adult court, you'll never see a probation officer until you've already been convicted or pled on the case.

SPEAKER_02:

Correct.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's because those services aren't going to be offered until there's been a determination that there's guilt. In juvenile court from day one, when you show up in the courtroom, you're going to be assigned a juvenile probation officer. And there's going to be conditions that they're going to put in place to help rehabilitate the juvenile, regardless of what happens on that charge. So services are offered from the get-go.

SPEAKER_04:

That's right. The juvenile probation officer is kind of there to see hey, are this child's needs being met? Is there any issue at home or anything going on with the child that need to be addressed, right? It may even be counseling or, you know, you may have a child going through some mental health issues, things like that. So those services are available regardless of the outcome of the case, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly. Yes. And so we do, they'll be sent for psychological evaluations. They'll make different connections in the community, sometime to nonprofits that can help them. And there's sometimes where they're buying them food, sending them to the food bank or helping them get clothes. It can be as basic as that in juvenile court. So you have to remember there's a lot of things that can land a child in juvenile court, but there's also a lot of external factors going on, and we want to make sure we address them all.

SPEAKER_04:

So let's talk about that. You know, somebody ending up in a juvenile court. Um, is there uh an age that maybe is too young for somebody to end up in juvenile court?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So the juvenile court's not gonna have jurisdiction over children until they turn 10 years old. So we will see children that um allegedly committed offenses between the age of 10 and 17. So until you're 10, you're not gonna end up in juvenile court. You may end up in a different courtroom, but you won't be held accountable in a juvenile courtroom.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. And uh, Scott, I I've had defendants as young as 10 years old. And it's really yeah, and I mean, you're talking about elementary school age, you know, and nowadays, one of the things that stands out to me about the juvenile system now that, you know, is maybe a little different from when I grew up and when you grew up, you and I went to high school together, so I guess when we grew up, uh, is you know, uh a lot of fights at the school now are actually prosecuted and end up in juvenile court.

SPEAKER_02:

That wasn't the case when I was in school. Used to be the assistant principal took care, the assistant principal did all the discipline. Sure. You'd have in school suspension for a little while, and and it was never courts were never even thought of.

SPEAKER_04:

We we had SWAT at our high school. We did like I I remember uh well, we I did. I remember as a junior in high school getting SWAT by the principal. So times are a little bit different then. But now uh, you know, I've represented some of these kids who are as young as 10 who get to a fight at school, and they're referred to the to the juvenile system. So when you have uh a juvenile, um they can be taken into custody, correct?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And so juveniles are taken into custody, but it's a little bit different. We don't call it an arrest, we call it detain, detaining them and putting them in detention, not a jail. Um, and there's a couple different ways that that can happen. Juvenile probation can make the decision that they need to be detained when the officer makes the detention or arrest. Um, the other way is a directive d'apprehend, which is very similar to an adult warrant. Okay. It's whether there's probable cause or not that a crime has been committed. And if there is, um, a juvenile judge can sign it and then they can be picked up anywhere. It's just like an arrest warrant. So it could be throughout the whole state of Texas, it could be outside the state of Texas. And they would need to come back to that juvenile court just like an adult would, but there is a warrant process. It's just called something different, a directive to apprehend.

SPEAKER_04:

So that's the circumstance that you were talking about where the juvenile probation officer may get involved right at the beginning. Yes. And they may make a determination as to whether that juvenile needs to be detained or not. Um, and then there it sounds like there's circumstances where maybe an officer or an investigator goes to a judge like yourself and says, Judge, I have reason to believe this juvenile committed this offense. I think I have probable cause. We need to get this juvenile into custody. And that that may that's the owner to apprehend that you were discussing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And there's times even on the directive de apprehend that I've seen where the directive de apprehend is executed and they're still released to the parents.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

So there's actually the judge doesn't just decide willy-nilly. The law gives us the kind of considerations that we're supposed to look at to determine whether the child should be placed in detention or released to home or released somewhere else. And so the juvenile probation officer is going to make that first decision. Is there somewhere else safe that they can be adequately supervised where the public will still be protected? Um, what's the nature of the charge? Where's the victim at? Things like that that they're gonna consider. But there's actual, it's a list in the law for them to follow. Um, and those same considerations the judge will consider then at a detention hearing if the child is detained.

SPEAKER_04:

So the thing that always stood out to me about the juvenile system is that um it seems like along the way, um, before you maybe get to a juvenile being held at a detention center, there are so many opportunities where the juvenile could just be maybe released to the parents, or maybe juvenile probation could intervene and say, okay, well, so long as the juvenile follows these conditions, we don't need to take that next step. A little bit different than the adult system, where somebody gets arrested and you're going to jail, and then you know, things are decided after that. The juvenile system's different in that way.

SPEAKER_01:

It's very different. And there's multiple options that juvenile probation has that a lot of people aren't familiar with unless your child's gone through it. And so some of the options they have are they can do what's called assess, counsel, and release. And so at that, they're looking at the situation, they're counseling them. It could have been just a really bad decision made by a child where they didn't know that that was illegal, given the circumstances they think a good talking to you is going to solve it. That's usually gonna be really low-level offenses. And then they release them. And that's gonna be the end of their contact with the juvenile system. They also have some where they'll put them on a deferred contract, which is very similar to what you hear in adult court of pretrial diversion, that is between juvenile probation, the state and the child. If they satisfy that, the case is done. There's other times where um they may do nothing that could happen and no referral. I mean, that's always an option in any um court. And the last one is that they can request a petition be filed, and in that case, they're going to forward it to the prosecutor to make a filing decision. And that's typically where it will end up in my court.

SPEAKER_04:

So let's kind of talk about that deferred contract, because that that's a situation where your child's been accused of some type of offense, um, but maybe they're a first-time offender. They haven't been in a lot of trouble before, and maybe the offense is kind of a minor offense, right? Um, so in that circumstance, it sounds like probation has the option of saying, along with the prosecutor, uh, hey, we're gonna resolve it this way. Um, stay out of trouble, you know, whatever it is, take some classes, whatever the case may be. And that the case doesn't actually turn into a formal juvenile proceeding in juvenile court.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, exactly. And usually the state and juvenile probation have some kind of unwritten agreement on which kind of cases are appropriate for that and which ones aren't. They'll usually staff them with the prosecutor, but sometimes they won't.

SPEAKER_02:

I've seen a lot of occasions in Bayer and Medina where juvenile did their own thing and never even told the prosecutor about it.

SPEAKER_01:

That can happen.

SPEAKER_02:

So um and I didn't necessarily agree disagree with what they were doing, just we didn't know what's going on.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and so it kind of because the goal is to rehabilitate the children, it's that first shot where, hey, let's see if this will fix it. And if it does, then juvenile's done their job, right? Juvenile probation's done their job. If it doesn't, they're gonna come back and that's gonna be something for the court and the prosecutor to consider. Because if you violate the terms of that deferred contract, then the case can still be filed. So it's kind of it's kind of like a practice run. Is this somebody who really needs more services in the juvenile system or not? And so that's a good option there because we do have children as young as 10 in our court.

SPEAKER_04:

And the other thing that stands out to me about the juvenile court system or the just the process that juveniles find themselves involved in is there seem to be more protections along the way. Like, for example, I know when a juvenile is picked up and uh they're being detained, and maybe the investigator wants to get a statement out of them, there's a different process for that, right?

SPEAKER_01:

There's a very different process for that. Um, because they are children. The landmark case actually came out of a court I was assigned to as a prosecutor. Okay. So apparently you weren't the one who violated the case. No, I was not. It was prior to me being in there, but very familiar with the case because of that. Um, and the judge had got it right. And so that's why it's the landmark case on it. Um and so we were very familiar with it, but there's a lot of just kind of um not really hurdles, but just safeguards in place.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure.

SPEAKER_01:

So the first thing is that you need to make sure that the child understands what they're there for, right? Like the investigator needs to let them know what's going on. And so it's going to be a very different environment than talking to an adult. Um, there's going to be a magistrate that's going to have to talk to the child away from the investigator, make sure they understand what's happening, what could happen with it, and that that's really what they want to say. Do you really want to put this in writing? And is this true and correct? And they're going to have that neutral magistrate talking to them away from the investigator to make sure before they sign off or swear to any statement. And a lot of that is not to stop the statements. It's these are children, and we want to make sure what's that what is being said is truthful and that they understand the repercussions in making that statement. I have also seen as a prosecutor sometimes that the investigator lets mom or dad sit in the room. Right. And we've had children come um confess to a first-degree felony with dad sitting right there before. So it doesn't always stop it, but then clearly the child knew that they were free to leave, they didn't have to talk to the investigator and that they didn't feel threatened. And so if you're the parent and you're asked to sit in there, I mean, you can't interfere, but it doesn't mean your child's not gonna admit to what happened.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, and and I've had plenty of circumstances, and I don't know if you have, Scott, where parents call and say, do they have to let me in the room when the child's being in the room?

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, they don't. Um now we we had an instant an issue in between SAPD and a magistrate um here in Bear County, that whenever they took a juvenile in front of this particular magistrate, the magistrate say, You don't talk to the police. He would and and obviously that that upset the SAPD detective, but it he was known for that, for saying that you that is not in your best interest, don't do it.

SPEAKER_04:

Right. Because that that's kind of outside the scope of the the warnings that they give. Hey, you have the right to an attorney, you have the right to this, you know, you have a right not to give a statement, but that seems more like legal advice or a directive.

SPEAKER_02:

It does seem like that a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Because the whole point is, I mean, everybody's kind of heard of your Miranda warnings for adults, right? Well, you need to be able to explain those in terms that a child can understand.

SPEAKER_04:

And that's a 10-year-old. Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's the purpose of the magistrate, to make sure that a neutral person has explained this. Because a lot of children do respect law enforcement.

SPEAKER_02:

And just exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

If you say, come tell me what happened, they don't think there's an option that they can't. Now, once they meet with the neutral magistrate away from the investigator, then they should understand that.

SPEAKER_04:

And and at that point, you know, as this is going on, I mean, in in theory, somebody should be notifying the parents that, hey, your your child's gone into custody. Um, we suspect your child of this offense. That way the parent has some notice.

SPEAKER_01:

Usually juvenile probation will take care of that because juvenile probation should know that they were taken into detention, like that they've been detained or arrested, is what adults would say. So they should usually contact. Um, they don't have to try 10 times. Sure. They're gonna try, but they're not gonna go out to your home and look for you. And just because they contacted you doesn't mean you're going to have access to your child during that statement.

SPEAKER_04:

That's right. And sometimes at the end of that process, a decision is made that you know the child does need to be detained for some reason, and there are specific procedures and policies that follow that. But we'll we'll kind of get to that after the break, okay? Okay. Um, so you're listening to So You Got Arrested with Brit Criminal Defense. We're here with Judge Tina Hartman.

SPEAKER_03:

The attorneys of Brit Criminal Defense have helped over 5,000 clients move on with their lives. When an arrest or accusation turns your life upside down, we have the knowledge, experience, and integrity to get your life back on track. Traditional legal ethics, modern legal tactics, the best defense possible to get you through the criminal justice system. Search Brit Criminal Defense to see our reviews and find out why so many of our clients have trusted us to fight for them. Brit Criminal Defense, helping our clients move on with their lives.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay, so we're back. And if a child is detained, if they go to that detention center and they're held overnight, there are safeguards in place with regard to how quickly that child needs to be in front of a judge. Can you kind of talk about that?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so unlike an adult court where you get a bond, there's no bond set in juvenile court because the judge is considering factors to make sure that we're rehabilitating the children and that they're in a safe environment. So that's the first thing that I want to make clear is you're not gonna be able to bond out your child. Um, so within 48 hours or the next workday, if it's a holiday weekend, there should be a juvenile detention hearing. And that's where really the judge comes in at that point and finds out what's going on in that hearing. The judge won't know anything about your child's charge, won't know anything about what happened until it's presented in that hearing. Because sometimes people will, you know, call our office and we don't know what happened over the weekend, and we will only know what's presented during the hearing. The first thing we're gonna figure out during the hearing is was there probable cause for that initial detention? So what's probable cause? Um, a very low standard. Okay. It's the same standard that you use for an arrest in adult court. Right, right. So very low standard, and I try to remind people of that. It is does not, it is not equal to beyond a reasonable doubt.

SPEAKER_04:

They don't have to, you're not finding them guilty. You're just some credible evidence that an offense may have occurred.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And so that can be established multiple ways. Hearsay is admissible. So for people who are like, how could they just come in and say it? The rules of evidence don't apply in a detention hearing. Okay. So they can look at a police report and decide it. We can talk to a juvenile probation officer who talked to an officer and what they told them. So it's it's very lax compared to an actual jury trial that you may think of. Um, so it can be established by presenting evidence to the judge, testimony, or if there's a directive to apprehend, that already establishes probable cause. So if they present a copy of the directive to apprehend, a judge has already decided that there's probable cause. So that quickly gets us past the first step. Once we determine that there's probable cause for an offense, then the next thing we're gonna decide is should the child stay in custody? Should they be released home, or should they be released somewhere else? And that's where we look at those same factors that juvenile probation likely considered. We're gonna look a little bit clearer and harder at them. Um we will ask if juvenile probation's had a chance to meet with anybody. Sometimes they have. Sometimes it's a family they're already familiar with, sometimes they don't know anything yet.

SPEAKER_04:

And one of the things that I think a lot of people get confused about, you know, when I talk to parents on juvenile cases, is at that detention hearing, uh, a lot of parents think the detention hearing is kind of a miniature trial about the facts of the case. And it's really not. Um, the the detention hearing a lot of times has nothing to do with the facts of the case itself. You know, the court's kind of looking at is the child likely to abscond? Is there a lack of adequate supervision at the home? Are is a child able to have somebody return them to court? Are they a danger to themselves or others? And so a lot of those factors are apart from the the facts of the underlying accusation.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's very similar to the factors that you consider in setting a bail bond, right? But the difference is this is a child, so we don't want to place them somewhere that's not safe. Right. So there could be times that a child may not want to go home.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. Maybe there's something going on at the house.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And there's times parents don't show up at the hearing, too. They can't be released if there's no parent there too.

SPEAKER_04:

That is such a good point because I I don't know if you've had that happen, Scott, but I've had the detention hearings where the parents don't show, and then we're there, like, well, we can't really have a hearing.

SPEAKER_02:

The sad thing is is sometimes we get kids who are, you can tell when you talk to the kids that this kid's really a pretty good kid, but they can't get released because they don't have good parents. And then you see like kids who are like, oh no, this kid's a problem, but they have good parents, and you wonder how all this happens.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and there's always the option um of releasing somewhere other than to the parents. So if there's if another family member, another suitable adult, or the I've seen times where we've put them in emergency shelters if they're appropriate. That depends a lot on the charges, the child, the circumstances, but there are other options. Um, but obviously we would encourage the parents to be there.

SPEAKER_04:

And when you're making these decisions, you're making these decisions with the idea of what is helpful for this child, what is good for this child, what's going to help this child.

SPEAKER_01:

So the court's always focusing towards rehabilitating the child while holding them accountable. We do take into consideration, though, protection of the public and the victim, especially on certain charges. That's a big factor.

SPEAKER_02:

One of the things I've seen, because we're talking about this happens within 48 hours, but I've seen judges like, well, let's just hold them in detention for now because you're going to get another hearing every, you're going to get a hearing every two weeks. Can you speak about how that happens?

SPEAKER_01:

So in most areas, you will get another juvenile detention hearing if they're detained within 10 working days. In our county, because it's rule, the detention center is not in our county. So the code allows for up to 15 working days. So it could be up to three weeks. It doesn't mean I have to reset it that far, but I can if there's stuff. During that 10 days, right, 10 business days, a lot of times what you'll see happening is juvenile probation will be meeting not only with the child, with the parents, with other adults to find out what's going on. They may find out what's going on at school. And very frequently there'll be a psychological evaluation conducted to see what's going on and what kind of services do they need.

SPEAKER_02:

Because in that first 48 hours, you don't necessarily have a lot of information. So sometimes I'm not particularly talking about yourself, but I've seen judges in an abundance of caution, like, we're going to hold them for now. Let's let's get some more information in here.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, and and you have those detention hearings, you know, every 10 to 15 days. And then that murder trial or murder case that we had against each other, um, it went on for over two years. And we had to have the hearing regular detention hearings. Uh, I had my appendix removed and I had to show up for court. Yeah. Yeah. I think I was wearing sweat bottoms or whatever it is, just because we had these regular detention hearings going on on that matter. So, but it's it's a built-in safeguard for the child. Hey, is detention still necessary for this child?

SPEAKER_01:

And are there needs being met? Because there's sometimes that remember, our goal is rehabilitation. So even if you're in a detention center and not at home, I want to be sure do you have access to a counselor if that's what you need? If you have a substance abuse problem, are we trying to address that? Are we working on services? Um, if you have a medical issue, is it being handled? So, and they know, and um, most of juvenile detention facilities know if something comes up in court, we're not gonna take a side on it as a court, but we're gonna let you know so that that way you can look into it and hey, is is this being addressed?

SPEAKER_02:

We have our share of juveniles whose older brother went to prison for an aggravated assault and just got home and parole. But we've also we've seen our share recently, a lot in Medina County, some here, of kids who like to joke around on Instagram about I'm gonna shoot the school. Yes, right. And now some of them actually have pictures with guns. And in those cases, it's it's not always just about the kid, it's the community is in an uproar.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And something to keep in mind because we want to rehabilitate the kid, we want to keep the community safe. We also want to keep the child safe. And there's some times where there needs to be a conversation with the parent or guardian. If this kid goes home, you probably don't want to take them out in the community right now. That may not be a good decision. And so there's times when that conversation needs to be had too. And if the parent doesn't understand that, that's not good for rehabilitating the child either.

SPEAKER_04:

So in in juvenile court, um, it's kind of a mixture of criminal and civil. So when the actual juvenile case is filed, the filing instrument, like you know, we we talk about in our criminal cases, we've talked about indictments and things like that, but it's called a petition, kind of like you would find in civil court. And so when the petition is filed, it gets served with the child, the parents, and that's how the case starts.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So if you're a parent and an officer knocks on your door and says, I need to serve you with this, don't freak out. It's it's a different because it is quasi-civil criminal. Um, it's how they let you know about what you're charged with. And so the child has to be served personally. So they have to hand it to them, is what that means. And that's so that way we know the child has been informed of what the charges are. The parent or guardian should also be served. And if there's more than one, they should serve both of them. Um, but it doesn't mean the child's guilty. No, it does not. It's giving you notice of what the charges are and what the state has to prove. That's the purpose of it. And actually, the court doesn't have jurisdiction or the power to hear the case on the actual charges, separate from the detention hearing, until that child is personally served with the paperwork.

SPEAKER_04:

And that kind of starts the formal court proceedings on the offense.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_04:

And then once those proceedings start, it's a little more similar to maybe what we might find in the adult system.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. The only difference is you're going to have kind of parallel hearings going on at the same time, but with different purposes because you're going to have the hearings on the actual charge going on. And then if your child's in detention, you're going to have detention hearings and they're separate and they have separate purposes. Um, and so the judge will be looking at different things in both of those.

SPEAKER_04:

And then similar to uh the adult court, uh, there may be settings that aren't necessarily trial settings, pretrial settings. But when a juvenile actually gets to what we call a trial setting, it's called something different. It's an adjudication hearing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And so because we use different terms, and I'll just go over all of them because it'll make sense, but instead of um a plea, it's going to be called an adjudication. So they're adjudicated true. And it so children understand it better. Instead of being found guilty, it's found true or not true instead of guilty or not guilty, because we have children as young as 10. So we want it to be very basic terms that they can understand. And so that's the way the law has been written. And after adjudication, what is very different than adult court is that then the next thing for the court to determine is is there a need for disposition? And disposition would be very similar to what you think of for an adult sentencing. And so in juvenile court, you can say there's no need for a disposition.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, okay. So even if they're adjudicated true, well, it would akin to like a guilty finding. Yes. There may be no need to carry forward with the sentence.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And so to start the disposition hearing, the judge has to make a finding that there's a need for a disposition. Do we need to do anything? And so that's a little bit different than adult court, but it's because remember, the focus is on rehabilitating while holding them accountable and protecting the public. And so that's really what we want to look at there.

SPEAKER_04:

And then at the disposition, there's still the a variety of options, you know, probation, things like that. Um similar to what you might find in adult court for very severe offenses. There is TJJ D. Could you just briefly explain what that is?

SPEAKER_01:

So it's the Texas juvenile justice um division's institutional, I'll say institutional division is what it is. It is not the same as adult prison, but some kids it's not prison for kids. Some people think that that's what it is, but it's not. Their time there actually depends on how they work the programs. So whereas in adult prison, it's a privilege to get to go to the classes or go get a certification or work some of the counseling programs. At TJJJD, it's mandated. That's how you decide how you get out of there. You need to do your counseling, you need to go to class, you need to work on what needs done because their goal is still rehabilitation. It may not be safe for you to do that anywhere else, but the goal still is rehabilitation in TJJD. And it's usually an indeterminate sentence on an original petition. It's an indeterminate sentence. They can hold you there up to a certain age. And the time you spend there depends on how you work the program.

SPEAKER_04:

So if you work the program, you can get released quicker quicker than if you just malinger and you really don't do anything. Yes. One of the questions or the topics that always comes up has to do with juvenile records. So if a child gets uh taken into juvenile custody, you know, let's say they're 10, now they're applying for college, family's freaking out. Hey, little Billy got into a fight in fifth grade, he he went before a juvenile judge. Um, how does that work? Can you explain juvenile records?

SPEAKER_01:

So it depends on the level of the offense and the disposition that's reached. So kind of what the punishment was. Um, generally, juveniles have a right to seal their record. And they're the court and juvenile probation will make sure that they're aware of that. They'll have an attorney with them. I forgot to mention this earlier, but at every initial detention hearing, you will have an attorney there. Whether you hire one or not, the court's gonna have an attorney there for you. You um the child's attorney will explain the ceiling laws as well as juvenile probation, depending on your record. Now, for some felony offenses, um, that's a little bit different. The more serious offenses, if you're sent to TJJD, that could affect your adult criminal record and could be used to enhance your punishment. And you will know that. That's not something that will not be said to you in court during the process.

SPEAKER_04:

And I think that is the one exception that we encounter as defense attorneys, Scott, is the enhancement where somebody's punishment on an adult case can be made worse or held against them is if they actually did end up in the case.

SPEAKER_02:

But even when we get a deferred disposition, so I had an inaggrated robbery just recently. So it says in the plea paperwork, this case you don't have the right to have your record sealed. Uh, but they did send him home with his parents. That we don't really have time to talk about C and D determined determinants in this. There's there's a lot to the juvenile system to talk about.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, yes. But um, is there any other uh misconception that you would like people to be aware of or anything that you would like to clarify about the juvenile system, maybe that people ask you about that you you want to give information on?

SPEAKER_01:

I would tell you the biggest thing is that a lot of kids don't think they'll be held accountable. They don't realize it can happen. They think, well, I'm a kid, I won't get as in much trouble. And as you mentioned with the certification, there's a lot of factors that go into that, but that can follow you and that can happen. And so I think just making sure that your child understands once you turn 10, you're responsible under the law for your actions. It's not mom and dad anymore.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, we want to thank Judge Tina Hartman for coming in and discussing the juvenile court system with us. This is So You Got Arrested with Steve Barrera and Scott Simpson.

SPEAKER_02:

She's gonna be back with us next episode, next week. There we go. There we go.

SPEAKER_04:

We'll see her then.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks for listening to So You Got Arrested. If you found this podcast helpful, share it with someone who needs to hear it. For more legal insights and real talk from the front lines of the Texas justice system, follow us and subscribe. And remember, Brick Criminal Defense has your back. For more information, visit us at brckdefense.com.